01-19-2024, 04:26 PM
OOPS! Looks like CNN has finally slipped IDF censorship.
Israel/Hamas War Superthread
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02-11-2024, 10:41 PM
The IDF has been bombing Rafah, a city crammed with over 1 million refugees who were told by Israel to evacuate to the south of Gaza to avoid the fighting.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-11/ty-article-live/idf-discovers-hamas-tunnels-weapons-under-unrwas-hq-in-gaza/0000018d-9600-d443-a19f-fe91a0240000 This really has the potential to draw in other nations. I am truly concerned at this point because the likelihood is growing that Arab nations in the region will come together and team up on Israel and, truthfully, I don't want us stepping in. I want us to cut aid. This isn't our fight.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
02-12-2024, 02:03 PM
(02-11-2024, 10:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The IDF has been bombing Rafah, a city crammed with over 1 million refugees who were told by Israel to evacuate to the south of Gaza to avoid the fighting. Yes, it could certainly escalate because of this. The war has kind of phased out of our major news cycle and I think most Americans have moved on, so there's a perception that this thing is winding down, even finished. I don't think Egypt ultimately gives a shit and probably quietly would be happy for Gaza to be under Israeli rule. Has Syria recovered from their civil war enough to really project power into Israel?
02-12-2024, 04:08 PM
Saw this over the weekend. Didn't have time to do much research but it is heartbreaking.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240210-body-of-gaza-girl-ambulance-team-trapped-under-israeli-fire-found-after-12-days/ Quote:Relatives found the body on Saturday of a 6-year-old Palestinian girl who had begged Gaza rescuers to send help after being trapped by Israeli military fire, along with the bodies of five of her family members and two ambulance workers who had gone to save her, Reuters reports. Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
02-12-2024, 06:39 PM
(02-11-2024, 10:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The IDF has been bombing Rafah, a city crammed with over 1 million refugees who were told by Israel to evacuate to the south of Gaza to avoid the fighting. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-12-2024-4ade5edf47711c6b0c13d1380980de2b?taid=65c9f48be58ebf0001ba109b&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter Quote:[color=var(--headlineColor)]Israeli forces rescue 2 hostages in dramatic Gaza raid that killed at least 67 Palestinians[/color] It's like they just put them in a pen and are killing them. Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
02-12-2024, 06:52 PM
(02-12-2024, 06:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-12-2024-4ade5edf47711c6b0c13d1380980de2b?taid=65c9f48be58ebf0001ba109b&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter The IDF just rescued two hostages that were being held in Rafah, per your own source. How is the attack on Rafah then not the fault of the Hamas dogs sheltering in the city and holding hostages within? Can you square that circle for me?
02-12-2024, 09:03 PM
(02-12-2024, 06:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The IDF just rescued two hostages that were being held in Rafah, per your own source. How is the attack on Rafah then not the fault of the Hamas dogs sheltering in the city and holding hostages within? Can you square that circle for me? I personally tend to put fault on the person that pulled the trigger, those giving that person orders (if there are any), and then the conditions that created the reason for the violence. That is my order of blame in every situation, including this one. If more than two deaths of those 60+ were innocent Palestinians, then that is disproportionate. Israel is conducting this operation in an indiscriminate manner and it really is disgusting.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
02-13-2024, 02:08 PM
(02-12-2024, 09:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I personally tend to put fault on the person that pulled the trigger, those giving that person orders (if there are any), and then the conditions that created the reason for the violence. Using this logic the US Army bomber pilot who dropped bombs on German cities is more responsible for any deaths caused by that bombing than Hitler. While I absolutely would do whatever was reasonably possible to curb civilian casualties it becomes difficult to impossible when your enemy deliberately hides among them for the exact reason that you and others are outraged. So I must wholeheartedly disagree. As long as Israel takes reasonable measures to reduce civilian casualties, when possible, then the blame for any deaths falls squarely on Hamas. Both for starting this war and for using civilians as human shields. Quote:That is my order of blame in every situation, including this one. If more than two deaths of those 60+ were innocent Palestinians, then that is disproportionate. Israel is conducting this operation in an indiscriminate manner and it really is disgusting. Why two? Why not one or three? Why not five? You see how arbitrary numbers in this regard at then end of the day make zero sense? When your enemy deliberately hides behind civilians then they are to blame. While we don't have all the facts, it appears the shooter in Houston was using a five year old in the same fashion. A pro-Palestine message on their gun and using a five year old as a human shield. It would appear that they've learned their lesson from Hamas well.
02-13-2024, 03:17 PM
(02-13-2024, 02:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Using this logic the US Army bomber pilot who dropped bombs on German cities is more responsible for any deaths caused by that bombing than Hitler. While I absolutely would do whatever was reasonably possible to curb civilian casualties it becomes difficult to impossible when your enemy deliberately hides among them for the exact reason that you and others are outraged. So I must wholeheartedly disagree. As long as Israel takes reasonable measures to reduce civilian casualties, when possible, then the blame for any deaths falls squarely on Hamas. Both for starting this war and for using civilians as human shields. But Israel is not taking reasonable measures, and that is the issue. (02-13-2024, 02:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why two? Why not one or three? Why not five? You see how arbitrary numbers in this regard at then end of the day make zero sense? When your enemy deliberately hides behind civilians then they are to blame. While we don't have all the facts, it appears the shooter in Houston was using a five year old in the same fashion. A pro-Palestine message on their gun and using a five year old as a human shield. It would appear that they've learned their lesson from Hamas well. I started typing up a response, got distracted and lost my train of thought. Anyway, there were two captives rescued and 30 times that of Palestinians killed. If more than two of them were innocents, which it is likely they were, then that is disproportionate. I just can't justify the exponential disparity in casualties.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
02-13-2024, 03:25 PM
(02-13-2024, 03:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But Israel is not taking reasonable measures, and that is the issue. Are they not? I've seen a lot of conflicting information on this subject. Also, reasonable is, of course, subjective. Quote:I started typing up a response, got distracted and lost my train of thought. Anyway, there were two captives rescued and 30 times that of Palestinians killed. If more than two of them were innocents, which it is likely they were, then that is disproportionate. I just can't justify the exponential disparity in casualties. Fair, as that is a logical framework for viewing it. Personally, I would not apply such a standard to the operations based on the following reasons. 1. Hamas started this conflict by, in part, taking these hostages. 2. Hamas deliberately took civilian hostages. 3. Hamas then hides said hostages in highly populated civilian areas in order to expose as many civilian casualties as possible to any rescue attempt conducted by Israel. 4. Allowing Hamas to use this tactic only ensures it will continue to be used, both with more frequency and in increasingly more significant fashion. 5. Hamas is the one deliberately exposing their own people to potential death and injury. None of these can be reasonably disputed. Hence, civilian casualties in such operations happen directly due to intentional action by Hamas. Consequently, I would not personally ascribe to your one for one position
02-13-2024, 03:49 PM
BTW, Bel, this back and forth really does an excellent job of illustrating just how effective this tactic by Hamas is. If I may be presumptuous, I think we're both reasonable people, yet we see this scenario through a completely different lens. In this exact scenario you see a one for for one trade as being the only acceptable outcome/risk. Not preferable, but acceptable. Myself, I would view it this way. There is a plan to free two hostages and it has a high chance of success. The low end for civilian casualties is say, fifteen, with the high end being around a hundred. I'm greenlighting it all day, and for the reasons I gave above. Now if the roles in this conflict were completely reversed (and I know it's not that black and white), I'd have a completely different view of things. At the end of the day you can't sucker punch someone in the face and then complain when they beat your ass. You stared the thing, deal with the consequences. Hence my assigning the blame for civilian casualties to the group willfully exposing them to harm as a deliberate tactic.
Maybe we just can't agree on this, which is fine. But I'll reiterate, the fact that Hamas can win you to their side on this issue (the civilian casualties issue, I know you do not support Hamas in any way), just shows how damn effective it is. Hence it will continue and more civilians will be exposed.
02-13-2024, 04:15 PM
(02-13-2024, 02:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why two? Why not one or three? Why not five? You see how arbitrary numbers in this regard at then end of the day make zero sense? When your enemy deliberately hides behind civilians then they are to blame. While we don't have all the facts, it appears the shooter in Houston was using a five year old in the same fashion. A pro-Palestine message on their gun and using a five year old as a human shield. It would appear that they've learned their lesson from Hamas well. See, here’s where I partially disagree. Yes, I do agree that Hamas is to blame when innocent civilians are killed. But you know who else I blame when innocent civilians are killed in these types of scenarios? The innocent civilians themselves. Let me clarify that point. And I’m being 100% serious when I say this……. If you’re willingly lying in bed with the devil, don’t complain when you get thrown into hell with him. Now, I get there are those who want nothing to do with Hamas. But for those that are harboring them? You reap what you sow. Some may say that’s a bad take, but I believe the real term is guilty by association.
02-13-2024, 04:21 PM
(02-13-2024, 04:15 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: See, here’s where I partially disagree. Yes, I do agree that Hamas is to blame when innocent civilians are killed. But you know who else I blame when innocent civilians are killed in these types of scenarios? The innocent civilians themselves. Let me clarify that point. I can't agree with this when you are effectively ruled by an autocratic regime that will kill you if you dissent. Yes, Hamas was voted in, but that occurred in 2006. So there has been no subsequent opportunity to peacefully transfer power to another entity. While I certainly don't think Hamas is wildly unpopular in Gaza, they probably don't have near the level of support most people would think they do. Even if they did, I can't blame children for the actions of their parents.
02-13-2024, 04:38 PM
(02-13-2024, 04:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I can't agree with this when you are effectively ruled by an autocratic regime that will kill you if you dissent. Yes, Hamas was voted in, but that occurred in 2006. So there has been no subsequent opportunity to peacefully transfer power to another entity. While I certainly don't think Hamas is wildly unpopular in Gaza, they probably don't have near the level of support most people would think they do. Even if they did, I can't blame children for the actions of their parents. I'm not blaming children. I'm blaming those who are willingly protecting them that have the capacity to think for themselves. As I said, I get that there are those who want nothing to do with Hamas and I don't include them in that. But to those that are willing to accept them and their genocidal ideology,? They must also be ready to accept the wrath that will befall them.
02-13-2024, 04:53 PM
(02-13-2024, 04:38 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm not blaming children. I'm blaming those who are willingly protecting them that have the capacity to think for themselves. As I said, I get that there are those who want nothing to do with Hamas and I don't include them in that. Which, as I said, is far fewer people than you probably think. I have a hard time holding individual people responsible for the actions of their government, especially when there have been no elections in fourteen years and your government will literally murder you if you speak out against them. Citizens who support Hamas I agree are getting what they asked for/support. But there's no way of discerning one from a person who does not, especially in this context. Consequently, I cannot agree with you.
02-13-2024, 05:09 PM
I'll give you a real world example of my own. If you've read many of my posts you know I loathe our current LA County DA, Gascon. I revile the man and he's caused tremendous harm to the county and its residents. But one thing I have to give him, he's doing exactly what he said he would do when he was campaigning. I deal with victims on a daily basis and he often comes up due to his tendency to wildly under charge criminals and give them amazingly lenient plea deals. They, almost to a person, indicate they voted for him and didn't realize just how bad he'd be. This is despite him doing exactly what he said he'd do. I do not hold these people any ill will, nor do I think they deserve the ill treatment they are receiving, despite voting for it, albeit often unknowingly. They realize they made a mistake.
Thankfully LA County residents have an opportunity this year to send the POS packing. Anyone who regrets voting for Hamas, or never would have given the chance, has had no such opportunity. I hope this made my position a little more clear/understandable.
02-13-2024, 06:04 PM
(02-13-2024, 04:38 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm not blaming children. I'm blaming those who are willingly protecting them that have the capacity to think for themselves. As I said, I get that there are those who want nothing to do with Hamas and I don't include them in that. 40% of Gaza's population (prior to the current events, hard to say what it looks like, now) was 14 or under. Of 2,098,389 people in 2023 (according to Statista), 1,479,221 were under age 30. So in 2006, the last time there was an election and Hamas took control and established their autocratic regime, they were a tween or younger, if they were even alive. I mean, 1,087,693 of them are under 20, so more than half weren't even weened from the tit if they were even alive. So this population had nothing to do with putting Hamas in power and have done nothing but suffered under this autocratic regime that has, for the record, been propped up and elevated by Netanyahu's government. They are trapped in Gaza. The access in and out of the area is controlled by Israel. Their access to the outside world is restricted by what Hamas will allow for and so far as Israel allows as well. What they are taught is that the situation they are in is due to Israeli occupation and most have no way of finding out any different. Unless they take violent action against Israeli forces, then they do not deserve to die in this conflict.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
02-13-2024, 06:08 PM
(02-13-2024, 06:04 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: 40% of Gaza's population (prior to the current events, hard to say what it looks like, now) was 14 or under. Egypt also controls access into and out of Gaza. Aside from that we're on the same page.
02-13-2024, 08:36 PM
(02-13-2024, 04:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Which, as I said, is far fewer people than you probably think. I have a hard time holding individual people responsible for the actions of their government, especially when there have been no elections in fourteen years and your government will literally murder you if you speak out against them. Citizens who support Hamas I agree are getting what they asked for/support. But there's no way of discerning one from a person who does not, especially in this context. Consequently, I cannot agree with you. But I feel like we agree. At least partially. Sure, it could be fewer or it could be more. My point was not to quantify anything here. My point was to express that those who have supported or continue to support Hamas cannot complain about Israel's mistreatment of them when they themselves support those who wish to destroy Israel. But i'm also going to argue here that simply because you call a place home does not grant you the right to live freely amongst those that wish to do evil to others and not be in the crosshairs of their conflict. You should flee from them or risk taking part in their destruction. Don't agree with your government"s genocidal ideology? Then flee from them. Run for the hills and don't look back. Im not saying that like its easy to pick up your family and leave everything. But its not any easier living in desolation. Take your pick. If your friends come to destroy me and fail, I will respond in kind with the intention of doing exactly what they intended to do to me. It's your choice to stick around.
02-13-2024, 09:08 PM
(02-13-2024, 08:36 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: But I feel like we agree. At least partially. I think you severely underestimate the limitations put on the people in Gaza. They have nowhere they can go. They do not have weapons to fight their oppressive regime. They are literally walled in on all sides by land and their ports are controlled by heavy handed regimes. They are far from "living freely."
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR |
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