04-28-2024, 12:57 PM
(04-28-2024, 01:45 AM)Dill Wrote: I'll reiterate: Your original question was "what children are in prison?"
I've answered with what you didn't know--Palestinian children. Hundreds of them.
"How many" was a follow up. And I explained why that was hard to determine,
given the lack of transparency in Israeli prisons. The number changes daily.
But still, I gave you valid numbers from different years.
Now some new goalposts:
Please note that the Israeli penal system is different from the US'. So
1. The crucial distinction here is between Israeli civilian courts and the military courts used to try Palestinians, not Juvenile vs Adult detention.
2. Under Israeli Law, persons under 18 are children, for reasons I've explained. Apparently plenty of "sane" people agree on this, or how could it be law in so many nations--including the US? But again you just say "A child is a person under fourteen years old," like a rule used for CA juvenile placement is some natural, cosmic law which transcends all nations.
3. OOOF! I just figured it out. You are going to claim that prisoners 15 and older in Israeli military controlled prisons really aren't children.
Ergo NO children in Israeli prisons-- another DILL LIE!
Some added information anyway. Until 2009, children 12 and older were tried in the same military courts as adults. 16-year old Palestinians are tried and sentenced as adults, and can receive 20 year sentences for rock throwing. But Israeli children are not tried as adults until they are 18..
IMPRISONMENT OF CHILDREN December 2017
https://www.addameer.org/the_prisoners/children#:~:text=Many%20Palestinian%20children%20even%20serve,the%20same%20courts%20as%20adults.
In practice before the military court system, there are no special interrogation procedures for children detained by the Israeli military, nor are there provisions for an attorney or even a family member to be present when a child is questioned. The majority of children report being subjected to ill-treatment and having forced confessions extracted from them during interrogations. Forms of ill-treatment used by the Israeli soldiers during a child’s arrest and interrogation usually include slapping, beating, kicking and violent pushing. Palestinian children are also routinely verbally abused. Despite recommendations by the UN Committee against Torture in May 2009 that the interrogations should be video recorded, no provisions to this effect have yet been enacted.
Many Palestinian children even serve time in the same Israeli prisons and detention facilities as adults. Military Order 1644, issued on 29 July 2009, established a separate military court for Palestinian children and ended 42 years of trying children as young as 12 years of age in the same courts as adults. However, the order fails to correct many of the fair trial deficiencies in the military courts relating to children (including insufficient provisions regarding qualifications for the judges, no added protections during interrogations, and discretionary language granting the prosecutor broad authority to suspend protections for children), which indicate that Military Order 1644 will do little to improve the protection of Palestinian children before the Israeli military legal system.
What's "very apparent" is that you are trying to spin a protest about MASS CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, OCCUPATION
and its consequent UNLAWFUL DETENTION as "really" about Hamas.
Yesterday you projected your own impressions onto a photograph full of signs about the war, occupation, and imprisonment--none about Hamas. Like it was a Rorschach blot--and "Plenty more where that came from!" Now you claim to know what is in the protestors' minds. That's partly understandable. They know about the occupation and its effects; you don't or don't care.
So you've just decided the protests are about Hamas--
There are Hamas prisoners in there with the children. THAT's whom the protestors really want freed.
then all counter-evidence is dismissed as "trying to shift the conversation" from your still unfounded projection.
I do have to give you credit. You managed, briefly, to change the subject away from the students wanting to free Hamas protestors. If you want to argue that Israel should release children, those under thirteen, that have not committed violent crimes then that's something I could possibly get behind. What I wouldn't do is join a protest also attended by Hamas supporters and avowed bigots.
The problem for you here is that you cannot make a cogent argument that there aren't pro-Hamas or antisemitic people attending these protests. You can only attempt to argue the percentage of the overall group composed of them. Sorry, old boy, them's the facts.
