“I don’t want to pay more money for the same team”

[THE PISTONS]

(07-25-2025, 09:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: They added a few guys via draft and free agency, and also cut ties with a couple of starters. Cutting starting players is huge for the Bengals. 

Yeah. Teams never stay the same with draft and free agency.

The Bengals mainly give platitudes in interview. Not really worth analyzing too deeply.

[Whatever]

So, currently, our changeover from opening day starters last year is...

RT-Mims* instead of Trent Brown
RG-Patrick instead of Cappa
LG-Fairchild instead of Volson
RB-Chase Brown* instead of Moss
TE-Fant instead of Sample
NT-Slayton instead of Hill**
3 tech-Hill** instead of Rankins
LDE-Stewart instead of Hubbard
LB-Knight instead of Pratt
Nickel-Newton** instead of Hilton
SS-Battle* instead of Bell

*Started at some point last year
**Started last year, but played a different position than this year

[Luvnit2]

(08-06-2025, 10:18 AM)Whatever Wrote: So, currently, our changeover from opening day starters last year is...

RT-Mims* instead of Trent Brown
RG-Patrick instead of Cappa
LG-Fairchild instead of Volson
RB-Chase Brown* instead of Moss
TE-Fant instead of Sample
NT-Slayton instead of Hill**
3 tech-Hill** instead of Rankins
LDE-Stewart instead of Hubbard
LB-Knight instead of Pratt
Nickel-Newton** instead of Hilton
SS-Battle* instead of Bell

*Started at some point last year
**Started last year, but played a different position than this year
*Started at some point last year

This shows lots of change. Hill is the listed starter on the depth chart in the slot. But I would add last 6 games of 2024 we had a ton of injuries so these guys were not starting.
Turner
Hill
Wilson
Hubbard (retired now)
Rankins

[*ochocincos*]

(07-25-2025, 09:24 PM)Ell Prez Wrote: Duke said this early in the offseason. Can anyone explain to me how this isn’t exactly what has happened? Especially with reports of the Hendrickson deal getting closer to happening with a significant bump in salary. Tee got more expensive, Chase got more expensive, Hendrickson most likely.


What did we really do this offseason? Who did we add that’s going to take us from missing playoffs to playing in the AFC championship game?

Tobin needs to learn that's how Free Agency works...
You pay good money for good veterans, and you have to supplement that with value veterans and draft picks to build the best team.

Does it suck that Burrow, Chase, and Higgins are no longer on their rookie deals?
Absolutely.
But now it's on Tobin and the rest of the FO and coaches to identify good players to fill the gaps now that so much of the cap is being eaten up by Burrow, Chase, and Higgins.

All 3 of these core guys impacted the success of the team their first or second year, resulting in good bang for the buck.
They need these (especially early) draft picks of the past couple years to start producing and being significant contributors to not decline.

If the Bengals didn't want to pay more money for the same team, they should probably have let some of the expensive guys walk and found (better) ways to backfill them with cheaper options.

[J24]

(08-06-2025, 10:18 AM)Whatever Wrote: So, currently, our changeover from opening day starters last year is...

RT-Mims* instead of Trent Brown
RG-Patrick instead of Cappa
LG-Fairchild instead of Volson
RB-Chase Brown* instead of Moss
TE-Fant instead of Sample
NT-Slayton instead of Hill**
3 tech-Hill** instead of Rankins
LDE-Stewart instead of Hubbard
LB-Knight instead of Pratt
Nickel-Newton** instead of Hilton
SS-Battle* instead of Bell

*Started at some point last year
**Started last year, but played a different position than this year

How many of those moves are lateral moves and how many of those moves actually make us better?

[*ochocincos*]

(08-06-2025, 12:38 PM)J24 Wrote: How many of those moves are lateral moves and how many of those moves actually make us better?

If this FO had a history of hitting on defense and OL draft picks who could contribute well early, I think we'd have more confidence in the likes of Fairchild, Stewart, Knight, and Jenkins and Jackson from last year to be good contributors this year.
I think these draft picks can become decent starters or role players, but how long will it take them is my worry.

Lucas Patrick was not a well-known OL on the FA market (I even said WHO?!?!), and RG might be his worst position out of the 3 IOL spots, so we'll see on that.
Might be better than 2024 Cappa, but it's really hard not to be. Is better than 2024 Cappa really the bar though to get to and win a Super Bowl? That's my concern.
Same thing with Fairchild over Volson.

Slaton is an upgrade in the run game for sure, but not pass rush.

Battle and Chase are upgrades over 2024 Moss and Bell, but for Battle, is he good enough to be at least middle of the pack SS in the league?

Out of the adds, the really only one I would is a clear upgrade is Fant.
Dude was a first rounder and has had consistently good production in the NFL since coming into the league.
He is a well-rounded TE and not just a pass catcher, but I think he's more of the Erick All replacement than Sample.
Sample will still have a role as a blocker.

[Soonerpeace]

(08-06-2025, 06:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If this FO had a history of hitting on defense and OL draft picks who could contribute well early, I think we'd have more confidence in the likes of Fairchild, Stewart, Knight, and Jenkins and Jackson from last year to be good contributors this year.
I think these draft picks can become decent starters or role players, but how long will it take them is my worry.

Lucas Patrick was not a well-known OL on the FA market (I even said WHO?!?!), and RG might be his worst position out of the 3 IOL spots, so we'll see on that.
Might be better than 2024 Cappa, but it's really hard not to be. Is better than 2024 Cappa really the bar though to get to and win a Super Bowl? That's my concern.
Same thing with Fairchild over Volson.

Slaton is an upgrade in the run game for sure, but not pass rush.

Battle and Chase are upgrades over 2024 Moss and Bell, but for Battle, is he good enough to be at least middle of the pack SS in the league?

Out of the adds, the really only one I would is a clear upgrade is Fant.
Dude was a first rounder and has had consistently good production in the NFL since coming into the league.
He is a well-rounded TE and not just a pass catcher, but I think he's more of the Erick All replacement than Sample.
Sample will still have a role as a blocker.

How will this team be good enough for a AFC Championship game? Hard to imagine the Super Bowl.
1. Burrow/Chase/Higgins have to all have great years
2. The DL. Slaton has to stop the run. Feel good about that. We will be better there. Somebody else has to emerge as a force. Whether it’s Shemar or whoever.
3. OL Brown and Mims need to stay healthy. Dylan has to be better than Volson. RG is scary
4. Chase Brown…. He’s not Saquan Barkley but he needs to make his name known in the NFL. The NFL needs to know he’s our star running back. Not a number.
5. The secondary. They need to play much better

I see this team making it to the AFC semi finals. I just don’t think we are better than KC, Balt,or the Bills. But in that group of 4.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-06-2025, 07:42 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: How will this team be good enough for a AFC Championship game? Hard to imagine the Super Bowl.
1. Burrow/Chase/Higgins have to all have great years
2. The DL. Slaton has to stop the run. Feel good about that. We will be better there. Somebody else has to emerge as a force. Whether it’s Shemar or whoever.
3. OL Brown and Mims need to stay healthy. Dylan has to be better than Volson. RG is scary
4. Chase Brown…. He’s not Saquan Barkley but he needs to make his name known in the NFL. The NFL needs to know he’s our star running back. Not a number.
5. The secondary. They need to play much better

I see this team making it to the AFC semi finals. I just don’t think we are better than KC, Balt,or the Bills. But in that group of 4.

Oh I'm right there with you, possibly even more pessimistic.
I don't think this team is really better than last year, and they were maybe a 11-12 win team if they hadn't started so slow.
This team did not address pass rush and pass blocking like I felt they needed to to be able to compete with the pass-heavy juggernauts like KC and BUF.
As much as doing better against the rushing teams in the AFC North might help them get into the playoffs, those teams aren't getting to the Super Bowl. It's the teams with good passing QBs.
I guess getting to the playoffs is a bit better than just barely missing like the past two years, but if they can't get to AFCCG or Super Bowl, it's still a disappointment in my eyes.

[J24]

(08-06-2025, 06:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If this FO had a history of hitting on defense and OL draft picks who could contribute well early, I think we'd have more confidence in the likes of Fairchild, Stewart, Knight, and Jenkins and Jackson from last year to be good contributors this year.
I think these draft picks can become decent starters or role players, but how long will it take them is my worry.

Lucas Patrick was not a well-known OL on the FA market (I even said WHO?!?!), and RG might be his worst position out of the 3 IOL spots, so we'll see on that.
Might be better than 2024 Cappa, but it's really hard not to be. Is better than 2024 Cappa really the bar though to get to and win a Super Bowl? That's my concern.
Same thing with Fairchild over Volson.

Slaton is an upgrade in the run game for sure, but not pass rush.

Battle and Chase are upgrades over 2024 Moss and Bell, but for Battle, is he good enough to be at least middle of the pack SS in the league?

Out of the adds, the really only one I would is a clear upgrade is Fant.
Dude was a first rounder and has had consistently good production in the NFL since coming into the league.
He is a well-rounded TE and not just a pass catcher, but I think he's more of the Erick All replacement than Sample.
Sample will still have a role as a blocker.

When you draft  Jackson Carmen , Dante Smith,  Trey Hill, and Cordell Volson over Creed Humphrey, Trey Smith, and Zach Tom. Then yeah you have to question the FO ability to draft OL outside of the first RD.( the last time they drafted an actual good player on the line outside of the first RD was Clint Boling in 2011 4th RD).

(08-06-2025, 07:42 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: How will this team be good enough for a AFC Championship game? Hard to imagine the Super Bowl.
1. Burrow/Chase/Higgins have to all have great years
2. The DL. Slaton has to stop the run. Feel good about that. We will be better there. Somebody else has to emerge as a force. Whether it’s Shemar or whoever.
3. OL Brown and Mims need to stay healthy. Dylan has to be better than Volson. RG is scary
4. Chase Brown…. He’s not Saquan Barkley but he needs to make his name known in the NFL. The NFL needs to know he’s our star running back. Not a number.
5. The secondary. They need to play much better

I see this team making it to the AFC semi finals. I just don’t think we are better than KC, Balt,or the Bills. But in that group of 4.

Yep!

(08-06-2025, 08:30 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Oh I'm right there with you, possibly even more pessimistic.
I don't think this team is really better than last year, and they were maybe a 11-12 win team if they hadn't started so slow.
This team did not address pass rush and pass blocking like I felt they needed to to be able to compete with the pass-heavy juggernauts like KC and BUF.
As much as doing better against the rushing teams in the AFC North might help them get into the playoffs, those teams aren't getting to the Super Bowl. It's the teams with good passing QBs.
I guess getting to the playoffs is a bit better than just barely missing like the past two years, but if they can't get to AFCCG or Super Bowl, it's still a disappointment in my eyes.

to your point about pass rush and IOL.

In the last 6 Superbowls(19-24) each team that participated in the game the average 3T had 61 pressures in the regular season according to PFF. The Bengals DTs last season had 60 total.
So you need an interior pass rush and guys that can block the interior pass rush to reach the Superbowl.

[Ell Prez]

(08-06-2025, 12:07 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Tobin needs to learn that's how Free Agency works...
You pay good money for good veterans, and you have to supplement that with value veterans and draft picks to build the best team.

Does it suck that Burrow, Chase, and Higgins are no longer on their rookie deals?
Absolutely.
But now it's on Tobin and the rest of the FO and coaches to identify good players to fill the gaps now that so much of the cap is being eaten up by Burrow, Chase, and Higgins.

All 3 of these core guys impacted the success of the team their first or second year, resulting in good bang for the buck.
They need these (especially early) draft picks of the past couple years to start producing and being significant contributors to not decline.

If the Bengals didn't want to pay more money for the same team, they should probably have let some of the expensive guys walk and found (better) ways to backfill them with cheaper options.

I took it more as him saying he didn’t want to have the bulk of the same team as last year and the only relative change was salary. He wanted to bring in new guys.

Which I guess we did, sigh. Just no one that transforms this team.

[sandwedge]

(08-07-2025, 09:06 AM)Ell Prez Wrote: I took it more as him saying he didn’t want to have the bulk of the same team as last year and the only relative change was salary. He wanted to bring in new guys.

Which I guess we did, sigh. Just no one that transforms this team.

You sure we didn't? Why not wait to see what a bunch of new coaches can do.

[Soonerpeace]

CINCINATTI BENGALS 2025-26 PRE-SEASON DEEP DIVE
Coach: Zac Taylor

Offensive Coordinator: Dan Pitcher
Defensive Coordinator: Al Golden

Most noteable additions:

TJ Slaton
Oren Burks
Shemar Stewart

Most noteable departures:

Alex Cappa
Trent Brown
Akeem Davis Gaither
Sam… pic.twitter.com/2TPLTV3JOY

— Sports Aficionado (@Stocksanyama) July 28, 2025

[Whatever]

(08-06-2025, 06:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If this FO had a history of hitting on defense and OL draft picks who could contribute well early, I think we'd have more confidence in the likes of Fairchild, Stewart, Knight, and Jenkins and Jackson from last year to be good contributors this year.
I think these draft picks can become decent starters or role players, but how long will it take them is my worry.

Lucas Patrick was not a well-known OL on the FA market (I even said WHO?!?!), and RG might be his worst position out of the 3 IOL spots, so we'll see on that.
Might be better than 2024 Cappa, but it's really hard not to be. Is better than 2024 Cappa really the bar though to get to and win a Super Bowl? That's my concern.
Same thing with Fairchild over Volson.

Slaton is an upgrade in the run game for sure, but not pass rush.

Battle and Chase are upgrades over 2024 Moss and Bell, but for Battle, is he good enough to be at least middle of the pack SS in the league?

Out of the adds, the really only one I would is a clear upgrade is Fant.
Dude was a first rounder and has had consistently good production in the NFL since coming into the league.
He is a well-rounded TE and not just a pass catcher, but I think he's more of the Erick All replacement than Sample.
Sample will still have a role as a blocker.

Slaton I think is a pretty undervalued addition. Hill played a ton of snaps out of position as the NT last year.  Getting a true run stuffing NT puts Hill back as the 3 tech, where he'll see more single blocking.  While Hill is by no means an elite pass rusher, he is solid and if Jenkins has improved as Golden has claimed, we might have a decent 1-2,  there.  Jackson showed some pass rush ability last year, as well.

Stewart and Knight have both been extremely impressive in camp, and let's face it, it wouldn't be too much of an accomplishment to play better than Hubbard and Pratt last year.  

Cappa, out of 136 qualifying G's, gave up the most pressures(51), 11th most hits(7), and the 2nd most sacks.  Dude was an absolute turnstile out there.  Not saying Patrick is good, but it would be tough for him to be that bad.  Fairchild I don't see being a big immediate upgrade, but should pay dividends in a year or two. 

[*ochocincos*]

(08-07-2025, 04:39 PM)Whatever Wrote: Slaton I think is a pretty undervalued addition. Hill played a ton of snaps out of position as the NT last year.  Getting a true run stuffing NT puts Hill back as the 3 tech, where he'll see more single blocking.  While Hill is by no means an elite pass rusher, he is solid and if Jenkins has improved as Golden has claimed, we might have a decent 1-2,  there.  Jackson showed some pass rush ability last year, as well.

Stewart and Knight have both been extremely impressive in camp, and let's face it, it wouldn't be too much of an accomplishment to play better than Hubbard and Pratt last year.  

Cappa, out of 136 qualifying G's, gave up the most pressures(51), 11th most hits(7), and the 2nd most sacks.  Dude was an absolute turnstile out there.  Not saying Patrick is good, but it would be tough for him to be that bad.  Fairchild I don't see being a big immediate upgrade, but should pay dividends in a year or two. 

I get all that, but this was just a 9-win team last year.
It does matter HOW MUCH better the replacements for Hubbard, Pratt, and Cappa (and Volson) will be this year to determine how high Bengals will seed and if they really will be good enough to get where we want (expect) them to get.

And to be honest, I don't really care how someone looks at camp. I care about how they perform during the regular (and post) season and whether the Bengals win or lose. There have been plenty of dudes who have looked good at camp and floundered once the season started.

[M.W.]

(07-26-2025, 01:40 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I think the defense will take a huge step forward this year due to Golden's system.

I am praying you are right, I believe they will be somewhat better this year and the offense will be better than last year.  Saying that, I obviously believe the Bengals make the playoffs (cautiously).

[Ell Prez]

(08-07-2025, 10:10 AM)sandwedge Wrote: You sure we didn't? Why not wait to see what a bunch of new coaches can do.

How did the new system and coaches do?