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Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Printable Version

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RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Soonerpeace - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 09:37 AM)ochocincos Wrote: When you judge performance, do you judge based on history or current?

Yes, Williams and Collins have performed well in previous years, but there's no doubt they are underperforming so far this season.
Volson performed much better in Week 2 vs Week 1, but he wasn't going against good competition in Week 2. I want to see how he does over the course of the next month or so before I think he's solid-or-better.
Karras and Cappa are performing well, especially Karras.

Also, on the below PFF article, they talk about how every single OL in yesterday's game allowed multiple pressures. They don't think the OL is doing well, still.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-3-game-recap-cincinnati-bengals-27-new-york-jets-12

I think Volson is going to be good. I’ve always thought Williams was average. The Cowboys let Collins go because he’s a maligner but does play on game day. Very interesting watching Perine tear it up. Went to the game Sunday. Recorded it get home tonight. Will watch tomorrow

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Rubekahn29 - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 10:19 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yet, here you are, arguing against the premise of the OP.

BTW, did anyone happen to notice that grueling, soul crushing drive that consumed over half of the 4th quarter, simply by handing the ball off to the same guy, over and over again?  Brought to you courtesy of our much maligned OL..

I guess you missed where I said the line played better yesterday. See what you want, I guess.

OP was stating information from the 1st 2 weeks as he was discussing grades, star players, and things that occurred in weeks 1 and 2. Then after those didn’t work they decided to say they were discussing week 3. I would definitely be open to suggesting our line was NOT horrible in week 3, but you cannot argue with the results of weeks 1 and 2 without shoving your head in the sand.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - NUGDUKWE - 09-26-2022

(09-25-2022, 10:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well, people are still saying it after today’s game against the Jets, so that’s probably why Pistons is asking the question. He didn’t start this thread last week or the week before.

I do think they played better this week from watching the game and the offensive output. But I have still seen some troubling stats. Like Carl Lawson a big increase in pass rush win rate and that we ranked 27th of 30 teams in pass pro win rate. So I think better but still not where it needs to be. I think we need to commit to helping the tackles at times with a guy chipping in the edge. I don't really see the harm in the harm in having the RB putting a hit on the edge guy and allowing either Collins or Williams a chance to set up. I just didn't see that much of it the 1st 2 weeks. Especially when we had success doing it against Watt in the past and the kind of production Parsons has had.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - higgy100 - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 10:31 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: And was still sacked 1 less time than Burrow was with a fully healthy line in their 3rd game together and what was considered their best game together. Not sure you’re helping yourself out here buddy.

Hello McFly, are you there? So now you're bitching and moaning on a Bengals team where JB only got sacked 2X.You're good. The Chargers were only missing their C for the game until late in the 3rd quarter when they lost their LT and they only ran for 26 yards and almost had their QB killed by getting him hit the entire game and their entire OL played together all of last season. Now do you see how that works?

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - NUGDUKWE - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 10:33 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I think Volson is going to be good. I’ve always thought Williams was average. The Cowboys let Collins go because he’s a maligner but does play on game day. Very interesting watching Perine tear it up. Went to the game Sunday. Recorded it get home tonight. Will watch tomorrow

I think/hope you might be right on Volson. I was very skeptical about him starting but he has been showing pretty good and hopefully he keeps improving.

I know this run doesn't go anywhere but I thought Volson's movement wasn't very good in the preseason. But he looks pretty good here and I think the run game might get going when everybody gets blocking together.

 

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Rubekahn29 - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 10:50 AM)higgy100 Wrote: Hello McFly, are you there? So now you're bitching and moaning on a Bengals team where JB only got sacked 2X.You're good. The Chargers were only missing their C for the game until late in the 3rd quarter when they lost their LT and they only ran for 26 yards and almost had their QB killed by getting him hit the entire game and their entire OL played together all of last season. Now do you see how that works?

I’m not the one “bitching and moaning.” I’m stating facts. You’re getting awfully upset over statistical facts. You’re talking about how terrible the Chargers line was but they still gave up less sacks than we did on our best game this year from our O-line.

Again, I thought the Bengals line played much better yesterday. I’m not sure why your coming at me so irate over nothing more than me pointing out a fact.

You need to relax. I never said they won’t get better as I easily think they will. But let’s not rewrite history and say they weren’t terrible the first 2 weeks, whatever the reason was.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Rubekahn29 - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 10:54 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I think/hope you might be right on Volson. I was very skeptical about him starting but he has been showing pretty good and hopefully he keeps improving.

I know this run doesn't go anywhere but I thought Volson's movement wasn't very good in the preseason. But he looks pretty good here and I think the run game might get going when everybody gets blocking together.

 

Two solid weeks from him after a tough matchup week 1.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - fredtoast - 09-26-2022

(09-25-2022, 10:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There are stats that show that Burrow is sacked at a much higher percentage of pressures.


Then forget sacks and just look at pressures.

No matter who you blame the sacks on the fact is that Joe is under pressure to often.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - THE PISTONS - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 11:25 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then forget sacks and just look at pressures.

No matter who you blame the sacks on the fact is that Joe is under pressure to often.



That's just it. Our pressure percentage is middle of the pack. ie The offensive line isn't giving up an excessive amount of pressures. But, Burrow gets sacked off of that pressure at a league-leading rate:


'Teams are not blitzing Burrow—he’s been blitzed on 20 percent of his dropbacks, the fifth-lowest number in the league. Teams are not soundly beating the Bengals’ offensive line—though certainly, facing T.J. Watt and Micah Parsons in consecutive weeks to open the season has presented its challenges. Simply, when Burrow is pressured (on 31 percent of his dropbacks, a league-average number), he is getting sacked off of that pressure at a league-leading rate (38 percent).

This is the same sensation the Bengals experienced last season—Burrow had a league-average number of pressured dropbacks, but a league-high number of sacks. Burrow’s high sack numbers wouldn’t go away if the 2016 Cowboys’ offensive line was playing in front of him. This is his play style. He’s a gamer, a risk taker, an I-can-make-you-miss-er. This is who he is.'

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2022/9/23/23367966/cincinnati-bengals-offense-struggles-joe-burrow-zac-taylor

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Wyche'sWarrior - 09-26-2022

(09-25-2022, 10:47 PM)Joelist Wrote: 7 out of the 15 sacks are per both PFF and other analysts on Burrow. The run game issues are part Mixon being hesitant and a step slow AND problematic run play design. Notice that once they put Perine in AND stopped trying to run stretch plays and instead went to the RG-RT gap all of a sudden they were moving the ball well against a defense that knew the run was coming.


.....and Joe even mentioned some of the sacks were on him.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - fredtoast - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 11:43 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That's just it. Our pressure percentage is middle of the pack. ie The offensive line isn't giving up an excessive amount of pressures. But, Burrow gets sacked off of that pressure at a league-leading rate:


'Teams are not blitzing Burrow—he’s been blitzed on 20 percent of his dropbacks, the fifth-lowest number in the league. Teams are not soundly beating the Bengals’ offensive line—though certainly, facing T.J. Watt and Micah Parsons in consecutive weeks to open the season has presented its challenges. Simply, when Burrow is pressured (on 31 percent of his dropbacks, a league-average number), he is getting sacked off of that pressure at a league-leading rate (38 percent).

This is the same sensation the Bengals experienced last season—Burrow had a league-average number of pressured dropbacks, but a league-high number of sacks. Burrow’s high sack numbers wouldn’t go away if the 2016 Cowboys’ offensive line was playing in front of him. This is his play style. He’s a gamer, a risk taker, an I-can-make-you-miss-er. This is who he is.'

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2022/9/23/23367966/cincinnati-bengals-offense-struggles-joe-burrow-zac-taylor


Pressure numbers alone don't tell the story.  According to Profootballreference.com Burrow has the 23rd shortest "pocket time" (time from snap to throw or pressure) but is 12th is "pressure percentage".  So he is getting pressured a lot despite getting rid of the ball very quickly.

As for last year their numbers are a bit different from yours.  They show Birrow as the 12th highest pressured QB with the second highest sack percentage.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Wyche'sWarrior - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 10:19 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yet, here you are, arguing against the premise of the OP.

BTW, did anyone happen to notice that grueling, soul crushing drive that consumed over half of the 4th quarter, simply by handing the ball off to the same guy, over and over again?  Brought to you courtesy of our much maligned OL..


Yep, and a RB that just lowered his head and hit the hole.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - SHRacerX - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 08:13 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly, that's one problem that's been left out of this thread. The opposing defense the 1st two games was given a leg up because they knew what was coming way more than they should.

Mixon has just been hot garbage and that has killed us and made the Oline look worse than they are. Joe Burrow started out with a hell of a funk and couldn't get back in the saddle making the Oline look worse than they are.

Communication issues on Oline have made them look worse than they are. 

I believe it will start getting better from here on.

Agreed.  We saw what we needed which was improvement.  

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Frank Booth - 09-26-2022

Because it is lol

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - ochocincos - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 11:25 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then forget sacks and just look at pressures.

No matter who you blame the sacks on the fact is that Joe is under pressure to often.

Indeed.

Pressures Allowed by player:
Williams - 13
Volson - 9
Karras - 6
Cappa - 5
Collins - 7
----------------------
40 total pressures allowed by these five

They're averaging 13.33 pressures per game.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - ochocincos - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 08:13 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly, that's one problem that's been left out of this thread. The opposing defense the 1st two games was given a leg up because they knew what was coming way more than they should.

Mixon has just been hot garbage and that has killed us and made the Oline look worse than they are. Joe Burrow started out with a hell of a funk and couldn't get back in the saddle making the Oline look worse than they are.

Communication issues on Oline have made them look worse than they are. 

I believe it will start getting better from here on.

But we knew that was likely to happen when you had 80% of the OL with new players, especially when they really didn't play together in preseason.

These first 3 games really have been the preseason for them.

Things probably will improve as the year goes on, but could not having them play together sooner and suffering those two early losses impact whether they make the playoffs, win the division, or get a good seed?

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Housh - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 04:09 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Because it is lol

I just didn’t wanna seem like a smart ass but this is what i was thinking

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Joelist - 09-26-2022

The Pro Football Reference stats (which I usually like) look kinda weird especially the numbers on seconds from snap to pressure which look absurdly low for everyone. Buffalo really is seeing Allen pressured only 1.1 seconds after the snap on average? Tampa is seeing Brady with the same only 1.3 seconds after the snap? Sorry, I watched Tampa play twice this year and both games Brady had plenty of time.

This also goes back to what exactly is a pressure in OBJECTIVE terms? Not a subjective definition because then the stat becomes a matter of opinion. also are pressures even a real issue? Depending on how you define a pressure you could see a qb who holds the ball waiting for a big play to open getting his line charged with pressures just because he resets a little on a long developing play.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - bengalfan74 - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 04:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: But we knew that was likely to happen when you had 80% of the OL with new players, especially when they really didn't play together in preseason.

These first 3 games really have been the preseason for them.

Things probably will improve as the year goes on, but could not having them play together sooner and suffering those two early losses impact whether they make the playoffs, win the division, or get a good seed?

I'm 1,000% on board with the Oline should have had a bunch of preseason snaps group. I believe it would have helped.

RE: Why is there a narrative that the OLine is horrible? - Nicomo Cosca - 09-26-2022

(09-26-2022, 06:12 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm 1,000% on board with the Oline should have had a bunch of preseason snaps group. I believe it would have helped.

Tbf Collins and Cappa probably wouldn’t have played in the preseason since they were dealing with injuries. Volson obviously did play, and Jonah is already familiar with this offense, so really the only guy you can somewhat question why they didn’t give any snaps to is Karras. And he’s been arguably our best OL through the first few games.