West Virginia cop fired for not killing a man with an unloaded gun

[GMDino]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2016/09/12/west-virginia-cop-fired-for-not-killing-a-man-with-an-unloaded-gun/?utm_term=.7bbae602713e

Quote:We’ve tracked countless cases here where cops were able to keep their jobs after killing unarmed people, killing people after responding to the wrong house, killing people and then lying about it . . . the list goes on.

Give the Weirton, W.Va., police chief some credit. He’s come up with a new spin on the the same problem. He just fired a cop for not killing someone.

[Watch: ‘Terribly devastating’ police shooting of Donnell Thompson leaves family asking why]
From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

Quote:

After responding to a report of a domestic incident on May 6 in Weirton, W.Va., then-Weirton police officer Stephen Mader found himself confronting an armed man.

Immediately, the training he had undergone as a Marine to look at “the whole person” in deciding if someone was a terrorist, as well as his situational police academy training, kicked in and he did not shoot.

“I saw then he had a gun, but it was not pointed at me,” Mr. Mader recalled, noting the silver handgun was in the man’s right hand, hanging at his side and pointed at the ground.

Mr. Mader, who was standing behind Mr. Williams’ car parked on the street, said he then “began to use my calm voice.”

“I told him, ‘Put down the gun,’ and he’s like, ‘Just shoot me.’ And I told him, ‘I’m not going to shoot you brother.’ Then he starts flicking his wrist to get me to react to it.

“I thought I was going to be able to talk to him and deescalate it. I knew it was a suicide-by-cop” situation.

Mader was responding to a 911 call from Williams’s girlfriend. In that call, she told police that Williams was threatening to kill himself, not anyone else.

What Mader did upon arriving at the scene is a hell of a lot braver course of action than simply opening fire when the suspect doesn’t immediately disarm. What Mader did is in fact exactly what we want cops to do when someone is in crisis.
It’s also precisely what law enforcement officers say they do on a daily basis — put themselves at risk in order to save lives.
Mader should have been given a medal. Unfortunately, two more cops then showed up, and quickly shot Williams dead.

[Watch: Diamond Reynolds’s live stream of the police shooting death of her boyfriend]

As it turns out, Williams’s gun wasn’t loaded. There’s no way any of the police officers could have known that. But it does show that Mader had read Williams correctly — he wasn’t actually a threat to anyone but himself. His life could have been saved.

ign up
The Weirton police department then refused to name Williams for three days and assigned an investigator to look into the shooting . . . who then promptly left for a weeklong vacation. Then came the punchline.

Quote:

Mr. Mader — speaking publicly about this case for the first time — said that when he tried to return to work on May 17, following normal protocol for taking time off after an officer-involved shooting, he was told to go see Weirton Police Chief Rob Alexander.

In a meeting with the chief and City Manager Travis Blosser, Mr. Mader said Chief Alexander told him: “We’re putting you on administrative leave and we’re going to do an investigation to see if you are going to be an officer here. You put two other officers in danger.”

Mr. Mader said that “right then I said to him: ‘Look, I didn’t shoot him because he said, ‘Just shoot me.’ ”

On June 7, a Weirton officer delivered him a notice of termination letter dated June 6, which said by not shooting Mr. Williams he “failed to eliminate a threat.”

[Watch: Conflicting views: Experts analyze police shooting videos]

The city mentioned two other incidents in firing Mader, but it seems clear that his failure to kill Williams was the motivation for his termination. Even the rare cop who gets fired often gets to keep his pension. Mader won’t be getting one.

Quote:

After he received his termination notice, Mr. Mader sought attorneys to help him fight the city. He was told because he was still a probationary employee in an “at-will” state, he could be fired for any reason and there was no point in fighting the city.

One attorney told him the best he could hope for was to ask to resign instead of being terminated.

“But I told [the attorney] ‘Look, I don’t want to admit guilt. I’ll take the termination instead of the resignation because I didn’t do anything wrong,’ ” Mr. Mader said. “To resign and admit I did something wrong here would have ate at me. I think I’m right in what I did. I’ll take it to the grave.”

Over the weekend, the New York Times ran an article about the longstanding problem in which even the rare bad cops who do get fired are often able to quickly find work at another policy agency. Mader, who served a tour in Afghanistan and has two sons under five-years-old, told the Post-Gazette that he’s now studying for a commercial truck driving license, but he’d consider another job in law enforcement if he were offered one. I hope that happens. I hope he’s given the same second chance that corrupt, trigger-happy cops are given. My hunch is that he’ll be driving trucks.

I don't even have words for how awful this is.

[BigPapaKain]

'Murica continues to make an embarrassment of it's citizens and itself.

[Belsnickel]

I'm conflicted on this one. I'm one that would like to see a decline in police involved shootings, but there is not enough information here. If Williams at any time made a threatening gesture with that firearm then it was a clean shoot. You don't know a weapon is unloaded. Even if it is a suicide by cop situation, it is putting your safety and the safety of others at risk to not take the shot if the threat is there.

Unfortunately, because the police department involved is handling this situation poorly, we have only speculation to go on and they are making it easy to assume corruption. I applaud the officer for sticking to his guns here, but if he violated procedure then him sleeping better at night is the only upside to the situation.

[GMDino]

(09-15-2016, 10:17 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm conflicted on this one. I'm one that would like to see a decline in police involved shootings, but there is not enough information here. If Williams at any time made a threatening gesture with that firearm then it was a clean shoot. You don't know a weapon is unloaded. Even if it is a suicide by cop situation, it is putting your safety and the safety of others at risk to not take the shot if the threat is there.

Unfortunately, because the police department involved is handling this situation poorly, we have only speculation to go on and they are making it easy to assume corruption. I applaud the officer for sticking to his guns here, but if he violated procedure then him sleeping better at night is the only upside to the situation.

My thing is the first officer on the scene was handling things.  It was the two that came later that did the shooting.  If the second pair did not evaluate what was going on there is a huge communication problem.

And another unarmed man is dead in a suicide by cop situation.

[BmorePat87]

I give credit to WaPo for not putting "black man" in the headline like other news outlets did, just said, "armed man". Doesn't seem relevant in this case.

[BmorePat87]

It's hard to fault the two who came late. They see an armed man who is walking towards them with a weapon. We know he wanted to get himself clear, so we can only imagine how he acted.

The fault against the first is that, since he doesn't know the gun isn't loaded, not taking him down could have killed the two who arrived later. At the same time, that suggests that the only response to an armed person is to kill.

[xxlt]

(09-15-2016, 10:28 AM)GMDino Wrote: My thing is the first officer on the scene was handling things.  It was the two that came later that did the shooting.  If the second pair did not evaluate what was going on there is a huge communication problem.

And another unarmed man is dead in a suicide by cop situation.

Exactly. The fired officer was doing the right thing BY POLICY. He was deescalating the subject. Even if the gun was loaded, with it pointed at the ground subject was not a threat. 

[GMDino]

(09-15-2016, 10:34 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's hard to fault the two who came late. They see an armed man who is walking towards them with a weapon. We know he wanted to get himself clear, so we can only imagine how he acted.

The fault against the first is that, since he doesn't know the gun isn't loaded, not taking him down could have killed the two who arrived later. At the same time, that suggests that the only response to an armed person is to kill.

The fired officer used his training and what he knew about the call:  The man wanted to kill himself.

And he was fired for using his training and NOT shooting a man who wanted to kill himself.

[BmorePat87]

(09-15-2016, 10:40 AM)GMDino Wrote: The fired officer used his training and what he knew about the call:  The man wanted to kill himself.

And he was fired for using his training and not NOT shooting a man who wanted to kill himself.

I don't disagree, I'm just presenting the rationale of the police department while providing my own take on what that suggests (that the response is to just shoot). 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Unsurprisingly, left leaning media sites have all omitted the following quotes from the terminated officer;

Quote:“Firing me for it, it’s less of an eyebrow-raiser then to say the other officers are justified in what they did — which I think they were.”

and

"Mr. Mader is white and Mr. Williams was black. But Mr. Mader said the other two officers — who are also white — did the right thing given their situation."

Quote:“They did not have the information I did,” he said. “They don’t know anything I heard. All they know is [Mr. Williams] is waving a gun at them. It’s a shame it happened the way it did, but, I don’t think they did anything wrong.”

I wonder why the national news media has omitted those rather salient facts from their reporting?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Also, I'm curious why GMDabo felt the need to put "unloaded gun" in his thread title. How is that relevant? How could the responding officers know the gun wasn't loaded. Should they have just assumed it was unloaded? Is this merely the most recent example of GMDabo framing an argument against LEO's? Is GMDabo even capable of rational thought on this subject?


You decide!

[GMDino]

(09-15-2016, 10:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Also, I'm curious why GMDabo felt the need to put "unloaded gun" in his thread title.  How is that relevant?  How could the responding officers know the gun wasn't loaded.  Should they have just assumed it was unloaded?  Is this merely the most recent example of GMDabo framing an argument against LEO's? Is GMDabo even capable of rational thought on this subject?


You decide!

That is the title of the article at the link.

I suppose it was relevant since the first officer was trying to defuse a suicide by cop situation and it shows he was handling it correctly.  You know, a good cop trying to do things the right/best way.

Could it be you have an internal tic to accuse me personally of things you don't know and to defend all officers (except the one fired I guess)?

I won't pass judgement on you for it though.

Can you address how the officers handled the situation?  Should the first officer have been more aggressive and shot the man just in case two other officers showed up and were put in danger?

[BmorePat87]

(09-15-2016, 10:53 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Unsurprisingly, left leaning media sites have all omitted the following quotes from the terminated officer;


and

"Mr. Mader is white and Mr. Williams was black. But Mr. Mader said the other two officers — who are also white — did the right thing given their situation."


I wonder why the national news media has omitted those rather salient facts from their reporting?

Yea, I'm not faulting the two who came later. Seems like an appropriate response.  I'm curious what your take on the first officer is. Should he have been fired for trying to deescalate rather than disable? 

[*bfine32*]

Seems like a hard one to call with one side of the story.

I have read where the man with the gun was walking toward the other 2 officers waving his gun.

Of course, everyone would want the situation resolved without casuality; but an investigation revealed his reluctance to shoot put fellow officer's lives at risk. Much to Mader's credit he says the other Officers were justified in their shooting.

[GMDino]

(09-15-2016, 10:53 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Unsurprisingly, left leaning media sites have all omitted the following quotes from the terminated officer;


and

"Mr. Mader is white and Mr. Williams was black. But Mr. Mader said the other two officers — who are also white — did the right thing given their situation."


I wonder why the national news media has omitted those rather salient facts from their reporting?

If they omitted it where did you get the quotes? 

But seriously I don't think anyone has accused the other two of doing anything "wrong"...the story posted was about an officer who also did nothing "wrong" but was fired for it.

[GMDino]

(09-15-2016, 10:45 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I don't disagree, I'm just presenting the rationale of the police department while providing my own take on what that suggests (that the response is to just shoot). 

yeah, this less about him getting shot (we don't know what he did to get that reaction) and more about the first officer, with more information, trying to deescalate the situation and getting fired for what happened later.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-15-2016, 11:11 AM)GMDino Wrote: If they omitted it where did you get the quotes? 

But seriously I don't think anyone has accused the other two of doing anything "wrong"...the story posted was about an officer who also did nothing "wrong" but was fired for it.

Fair enough.  I forgot to include the link for the original article.  I'm a little rushed this morning.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/region/2016/09/11/Weirton-fired-officer-who-did-not-fire-at-man-with-gun/stories/201609090080

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-15-2016, 11:09 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Yea, I'm not faulting the two who came later. Seems like an appropriate response.  I'm curious what your take on the first officer is. Should he have been fired for trying to deescalate rather than disable? 

It's borderline impossible for me to give a good answer to that because I don't know that department's policy, I don't know this officer's prior conduct and I don't know the framework for termination during a probationary period for that department.  You'd have to look at the entirety of this officer's record and you'd have to know policy before you could make that determination.  I will say this is one of the problems I have with "at will" employment, they don't even need to give you a reason many times.  

[*bfine32*]

I think this is easily a story that could be manipulated to fit your agenda. Would the following headline be incorrect:

"Probationary Officer released from force after failing to eliminate a threat from charging fellow officers while brandishing a firearm".

[GMDino]

See now things like this article set people off, but it looks like the officers did what they had to do based on the situation.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/09/15/ohio-police-officer-shoots-kills-13-year-old-bb-gun/90398996/

Quote:Ohio police: Officer shoots, kills 13-year-old who drew BB gun


Police responding to a report of an armed robbery late Wednesday in Columbus shot and killed a 13-year-old boy after officers said he pulled a weapon from his waistband that was later found to be a BB gun.


The Ohio police department said in a statement on its Facebook page that officers investigating a reported robbery in east Columbus around 7:45 p.m. were told by a male victim that a group of people approached him and demanded money. One of them, he told officers, had a gun.

Officers said they were attempting to speak with three people matching the descriptions of the male suspects when two of them fled on foot.

[/url]My new thermostat turns itself down when we leave the house.

"Officers followed the males to the alley ... and attempted to take them into custody when one suspect pulled a gun from his waistband. One officer shot and struck the suspect multiple times,"the police statement said.
[url=https://twitter.com/ColumbusPolice]

The boy, identified as 13-year-old Tyree King, was taken to the Nationwide Children's Hospital in a critical condition and was later pronounced dead, according to the police statement.

Police said the gun, found at the scene, was later determined to be a BB gun with an attached laser sight.

But because it was a teen and it wasn't a "real" gun people will treat it like they just walked up on him and shot like the kid in Cleveland.  Each situation is unique.