Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[GMDino]

(05-10-2024, 08:37 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Give Joe credit. In his decades of "public service" (i.e. creating generational wealth for his family), he has been on the wrong side of every single foreign policy debate.

That takes some doing.

Can you expand and explain how Biden is on the wrong side of Ukraine and Israel?

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

[masonbengals fan]

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone here so you might as well go ahead and hang up.

[GMDino]

(05-10-2024, 02:27 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: I'm not trying to convince you or anyone here so you might as well go ahead and hang up.

Oh, you don't have to convince me.  You obviously believe it though so I'm curious how Biden is on the wrong side of history with Ukraine and Israel.  I'd be interested to hear your reasoning for it.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(05-10-2024, 02:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, you don't have to convince me.  You obviously believe it though so I'm curious how Biden is on the wrong side of history with Ukraine and Israel.  I'd be interested to hear your reasoning for it.

Pot faceplanting into the kettle

[GMDino]

(05-10-2024, 03:24 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Pot faceplanting into the kettle

How so?  

More often than not I will provide information to back up my statements.

Interesting turn of phrase though. 

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(05-10-2024, 03:36 PM)GMDino Wrote: How so?  

More often than not I will provide information to back up my statements.

Interesting turn of phrase though. 

No thank you.

[GMDino]

(05-10-2024, 03:48 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: No thank you.

Seems the theme of the day is make statements and then run from backing them up.

'K

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(05-10-2024, 03:49 PM)GMDino Wrote: Seems the theme of the day is make statements and then run from backing them up.

'K

Are you that desperate for attention?


What a sad game.


Take the hint.


Pass.

[GMDino]

(05-10-2024, 03:54 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Are you that desperate for attention?


What a sad game.


Take the hint.


Pass.

You responded to me first.  I figured you might have something add.

Guess you don't now.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(05-10-2024, 03:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: You responded to me first.  I figured you might have something add.

Guess you don't now.

I added it and moved on, or tried to, but got sucked in.

If you didn't get what I added, that's on you.

Moving on now, but you did get me for one more post. Good on you!

[Dill]

(05-10-2024, 08:37 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Give Joe credit. In his decades of "public service" (i.e. creating generational wealth for his family), he has been on the wrong side of every single foreign policy debate.

That takes some doing.

I'd say this is not wrong at all if you take perspective into account.

E.g. from Putin's perspective Biden has been on the wrong side of the Ukraine conflict for a decade.

Could get confusing in the case of Israel. 

Right after Oct. 7 he gave Israel a bunch of weapons and then shot down most of the Drones Iran sent their way,
so that looks like he's on Israel's side in the Gaza War.

But he won't give Netanyahu 2,000 lb. bombs to hammer civilians in Rafah, so the Israeli Defense
minister now thinks he is on the side of Hamas.

From the Fox/Hannity perspective I think you just pick whatever FP issue you want and then just say Joe was on the wrong side.
Even if you agreed with him on that issue at some point.

[Dill]

(05-10-2024, 03:49 PM)GMDino Wrote: Seems the theme of the day is make statements and then run from backing them up.

And twice in a row. Curious. 

Wonder if people believe such statements too easily, 

without evidence, and so feel put on the spot when asked "why"? 

[masonbengals fan]

Dill, you & I both know Hannity didn't come up with that one although I'm sure he probably repeats nightly. (I wouldn't know because I can't stand watching it)

That came from someone who actually served beside Joe. But you already knew that.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/robert-gates-thinks-joe-biden-hasn-39-t-212615128.html

At least that's my understanding.

On a side note, why do you feel you have to inject Fox news every time someone has a different opinion of things than you?

Is that meant to belittle other posters? Because you have made clear your opinion of them as a news source. I can only assume that's meant to imply conservative & independent leaning minds as being naive or easily manipulated.

[Belsnickel]

(05-11-2024, 09:36 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Dill, you & I both know Hannity didn't come up with that one although I'm sure he probably repeats nightly. (I wouldn't know because I can't stand watching it)

That came from someone who actually served beside Joe. But you already knew that.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/robert-gates-thinks-joe-biden-hasn-39-t-212615128.html

At least that's my understanding.

On a side note, why do you feel you have to inject Fox news every time someone has a different opinion of things than you?

Is that meant to belittle other posters? Because you have made clear your opinion of them as a news source. I can only assume that's meant to imply conservative & independent leaning minds as being naive or easily manipulated.

I mean, I like Robert Gates. I have had the pleasure of meeting him several times and he is a Brother in a few different ways to me. I actually interact with him somewhat regularly because of some overlapping organizational ties, but usually through Zoom. All of that being said, as much respect as I have for him, he also isn't always right. Everyone has a bias on these things based on their perspective, and that's what we should have because groupthink is a problematic. But it also doesn't mean that his opinion is factual.

[masonbengals fan]

I realized that was his opinion & every one of us has one. Not like I'm holding him up as the gospel, but he was a major player.

I also realize that it's problematic for the Dems coming from someone who actually served with Joe.

Guessing you guys interacted with the Boy Scouts.

[Belsnickel]

(05-11-2024, 10:20 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: I realized that was his opinion & every one of us has one. Not like I'm holding him up as the gospel, but he was a major player.

I also realize that it's problematic for the Dems coming from someone who actually served with Joe.

Guessing you guys interacted with the Boy Scouts.

Yes, but also a few other organizations, like Alpha Phi Omega, for instance. He and I share some similar achievements prior to our professional lives, then it diverges a bit. Though we both share a dedication to public service.

As for his opinion, I don't think it's problematic at all. Hell, I have heard of the disagreements between Obama and Biden. Again, different viewpoints are good and healthy in our system. These decisions are never easy and if they become too easy then it's time to get out of the game.

[masonbengals fan]

(05-11-2024, 10:29 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yes, but also a few other organizations, like Alpha Phi Omega, for instance. He and I share some similar achievements prior to our professional lives, then it diverges a bit. Though we both share a dedication to public service.

Kudos for the public service. 

[Belsnickel]

(05-11-2024, 10:31 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Kudos for the public service. 

Even when I was earning my accounting degree, my goal was always to work for governments or non-profits. I am not a good capitalist.

[Dill]

(05-11-2024, 10:29 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: As for his opinion, I don't think it's problematic at all. Hell, I have heard of the disagreements between Obama and Biden. Again, different viewpoints are good and healthy in our system. These decisions are never easy and if they become too easy then it's time to get out of the game.

Sounds like he was not a "yes man." 

[Dill]

(05-11-2024, 09:36 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Dill, you & I both know Hannity didn't come up with that one although I'm sure he probably repeats nightly. (I wouldn't know because I can't stand watching it)
That came from someone who actually served beside Joe. But you already knew that.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/robert-gates-thinks-joe-biden-hasn-39-t-212615128.html

At least that's my understanding.
On a side note, why do you feel you have to inject Fox news every time someone has a different opinion of things than you?
Is that meant to belittle other posters? Because you have made clear your opinion of them as a news source. I can only assume that's meant to imply conservative & independent leaning minds as being naive or easily manipulated.

I'm quite open to critiques of Biden's foreign policy. Leaving A-stan was a mistake, and he was pushing that all through the Obama administration. I have complaints about him that go back to the Vietnam war and afterwards, when he was fine with leaving Hmong to fend for themselves after serving as US allies for a decade. But unsupported, general opinions are about the weakest evidence possible. So that's what I'm addressing; this is about principle.

My primary comment was that assessments of Joes' FP seems to depend rather a lot on value/goal based perspective. E.g., from Putin's perspective his Ukraine policy was wrong. I could add that Gates seems to share Biden's perspective on Ukraine, though he complains Joe should move faster providing support. 
(Gosh, what or who is holding him up?)  Facts in such cases are not the primary issue, but the value framework from which they are assessed.

Fox watchers know their commentators systematically link whatever to Biden. There is not a foreign policy move Biden could make regarding Russia or Israel or Tahiti that would not be wrong. That indicates a rigid perspective unaffected by facts.

So the point was to get a contrast between judgments based differing values/goals and judgements made independently of facts. Assessment of Biden can start from the other side of that, using examples, evidence, recognition of values/goals.

I'm happy you are participating in these discussions and have no intent to "belittle" you. But I like to see criticism about Biden's or anyone's foreign policy resting on something like evidence, of which there was precious little in your article and you were reluctant to add any of your own. Without that, there can be no assessing Gate's judgement. THAT he worked for Biden adds nothing to Gates' charge Biden was on the wrong side of "nearly" every foreign policy decision. When assessments of Biden's FP are not supported by those who make them, then the "independence" of the assessments can't just be assumed.